Sarvik's balance mod suggestions

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Sarvik's balance mod suggestions

Postby Sarvik » 24 Jul 2015 14:00

I got bunch of super awesome ideas for balance mod that I clearly need to share with you simple people :P

First, making crays better at open maps.

HE Round special weapon (cray mains and heavies):
1. Firing range boosted to scout vision range or slightly above that.
2. Damage set so that 2 hits kill a beam in normal configuration but not more (no idea if that requires buff or nerf)
3. Remove splash damage (no infantry sniping)
4. Set to 3 uses

Basically this means that cray vehicles (like mains at speed) can snipe soft vehicles at long ranges without needing to send jagz walking to open, meaning that beams that rule the plains aren't so safe anymore.

OND defensive conf actually useful

OND defensive configuration for ALL units changed so that:
1. Health bonus remains same
2. Speed is same as in speed configuration
3. Damage is significantly reduced

That should be obvious, defensive is useless on all OND stuff because it is supposed to increase survivability but actually reduces it due speed loss. Solution is to give it both speed and health but trade away firepower.

Nerf to cray air

Cray fighers, attack planes and bombers (scouts not included):
1. AMS gets 90 second cooldown (like shields)

Buff OND anti-air

OND AA:
1. Double the firing range (vision remains same)
2. 1,3-1,5 times damage increase
3. Special equipment options changed to:
3.1 Shields 3 uses (survivability)
3.2 Defendgun 1 use (survivability/utility))
3.3 Image intensifier 4 uses (using firing range to max)
3.4 Speed booster 1 use (because why the fuck not)
4. Add special weapon: OND arty long range round (will look awesome while being mostly harmless)

[standing ovation]

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Re: Sarvik's balance mod suggestions

Postby shpooky » 24 Jul 2015 16:36

"Speed is same as in speed configuration"
why have units on defensive be as fast as speed units? why not as fast as balanced unit speed?
i always use balanced units when playing ond and the survival rate is almost the same as if i were to play with speed units(btw i also get more kills :D)

(i agree on needing to add speed to defensive config and reducing damage but not to that much of a degree as your talking about)


i don't like making cray have sniper tanks they already have snipers................ i was thinking of maybe making cray scouts have anti beam capabilities? (they already kinda serve this role but it needs to be improved upon) maybe add a rocket spec(homing missile) for scouts that will kill light targets such as beams or ond scouts..... but wont be able to target inf and wont be able to punch threw heavy armor like the armor of heavy's or meds (and if stat finds a way to edit the models we can add a rocket pod to the side of the machine gun,and yes it is possible to do this)



ok i agree with sarvik on nerfing cray air..........

but if you Nerf cray air you don't have to boost ond AA right? cause now they have a window of time to actually do some damage......
and also we need to remove that one equipment that makes cray AA really OP




and stat why was it that you changed the model of the cray machine gun turret? i liked the old one.............
also the new one is kinda silly due to the fact that lights are placing turrets that are bigger than a person and the turrets don't even look like they can fit in the light tanks

also do they have Hercules with them in their light tanks lobbing out turrets when needed? cause no one i mean no one can pick up one of those turrets and unload it from the tank and drive away
i only work in cyan and sometimes really really bright blue :D so bright it burns your eyes!!!!!

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Re: Sarvik's balance mod suggestions

Postby shpooky » 24 Jul 2015 17:09

oh and i forgot i agree with sarvik with adding shields to ond AA(why not? cray AA gets ams)
i only work in cyan and sometimes really really bright blue :D so bright it burns your eyes!!!!!

(if you have any questions don't be afraid to PM me or you can contact me via email ddavidshpak@aol.com)

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Re: Sarvik's balance mod suggestions

Postby Sarvik » 24 Jul 2015 19:08

Defensive conf:
I guess that is matter of taste, I personally prefer my suggestion but if others think that sphooky's is better then thats ok for me too.

Mains and scouts:
I think giving cray scouts very good special weapon would make them too good. They are already fast and have AMS.
In comparison mains they would be: slower, blind (needs others to scout), and with no options for defensive equipment other than repair pack.
Also firepower of thing I suggested would be quite mediocre (below jag special), so if you don't get good shot at beams or other soft vehicle, then they would have little use for other purposes.

OND aa:
They definitely still would need some buffing as AMS lasts still quite long so there would be little reason to take them over extra beams. If people think that simultaneous range and damage buff is excessive then I guess we could start with one of them and see how it looks. I think equipment suggestions are all quite solid.

Btw, I dunno what others think but I personally find reading rainbow colored posts annoying. That gay marriage thing was quite some time ago, maybe its time you Americans stop celebration and move on? :P

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Re: Sarvik's balance mod suggestions

Postby DarixIta » 25 Jul 2015 21:17

Balanced, offensive and defensive could really use some changes, especially because right now speed and stealth are the best ones to use. A nice idea could be also to modify range\sight range and not just health and damage.
Ninja mods have different weapons on every unit based on which loadout is chosen and some tests along those lines were run on aeros too. But those could change gameplay and balance a lot more than just buffing or debiffing some attributes.

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Re: Sarvik's balance mod suggestions

Postby Ninja_Prime52 » 26 Jul 2015 05:58

Hi Guy's, the mods I did so long ago was to show the community the possibilities of what could be achieved with the limited resources to the code. The result was basically me and a bunch of other guy's messing around with the graphics and settings to see what they would do and how they would change the gameplay. My favourite was the "Mole Missile", I think that's what I called it in the end, someone in the team wanted to call it something else, but basically it's a homing missile that burrows underground, the graphics were great cause you could see it approaching as it made its way to the target.
I am hoping that since Rebellion have released it on STEAM that they will also release the source code, so people can actually mod the F#*king thing.
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Re: Sarvik's balance mod suggestions

Postby stAtrill » 27 Jul 2015 03:25

Just stopping in to say I am watching this thread eagerly.

A few notes:
-Everything Sarvik (or anyone here so far) has mentioned could be implemented easily
-I stopped proposing new updates to the mod as most of my more experimental/unorthodox ideas were rejected (which isn't a bad thing), and I didn't want to 'wear out my welcome' (which would be a bad thing) with repeated updates / significant changes to gameplay

shpooky wrote:and stat why was it that you changed the model of the cray machine gun turret? ...also do they have Hercules with them in their light tanks lobbing out turrets when needed? ....
To your first question, during testing of the first prototype, the firepower/armor/health increase necessary to make them relevant simply breaks experience when the old model was used - the weapon, sound, and model all convey a light sentry. Increasing armor and health of a tiny gun, combined with having a tiny 'pea shooter' doing actual damage, felt both strange and amateur.

Also, let's not forget the Vulcan is the most badass, non-OP gun in the CC arsenal.

Your second hypothetical question defeats itself: How can the scouts manage to carry so many mines on hoverbikes/go-karts? Why don't we see infantry actually carrying radars (and why doesn't it slow them down to carry it)? How can the drone carrier manage to carry more than about 12 shots? How does anything manage to carry infinite ammo? etc and soforth.

Remember that a certain amount of suspended disbelief is required to play any game, especially one made in 2000. Games are created for their gameplay first, and realism second.

Also, will you please not color your posts? It actually makes them a bit hard to read x.x


DarixIta wrote:... A nice idea could be also to modify range\sight range and not just health and damage. ...
We tested that in an early version of 1103, the CC main had its attack range modified by its loadout option. To use the increased attack range required taking Telemetry, or playing in radar range. I don't remember why that one got rejected.

I am loving this dialogue though, especially adding more serious accentuation to the loadouts. I can create a test build for you guys whenever you want.

As my contribution to the conversation, I personally really liked the selectable artillery fire (non-ballistic mode) that we implemented in the original balancemod (I hope I am not alone here lol).

-Stat

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Re: Sarvik's balance mod suggestions

Postby Sarvik » 27 Jul 2015 13:36

Some people seem to think that "sniper tanks" would be too good. I don't think this is really so serious issue as actual firepower of that special would be pretty low. We could also limit it to 2 uses instead of 3 to alleviate fears.

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Re: Sarvik's balance mod suggestions

Postby shpooky » 27 Jul 2015 17:32

my colored submissions had nothing to do with gay people..............
i colored them to make them stand out but since they are hurting peoples eyes ill stop

to stat: yea... i guess your right about the mines and everything else
its just everything looks it can be deployed on the battle field like the rocket turret and radar unpack themselves
that's what the old turret use to do that, but now it just pops into existence.

to sarvik: i don't think the sniper tanks would be OP its just that i don't like the idea of sniper tanks at all
and the rocket spec wouldn't be too good as i said it cant punch threw certain armors(med,heavy) and we could make it slow enough that a defender gun could block it(so then ond scouts could place one down and be safe from the missiles+they could be carrying that one spec that goes threw ams so then in the end dead cray scouts D: again.........(this makes cray scouts anti beam and makes defender gun on ond scout be used)

concerning air we could go in multiple directions we could make ams have a cool down and ond air have a shorter cool down on shields
or we could give ond air a special weapon that could go threw ams like a beam spec or some other projectile(something that would miss sometimes cause specs that always hit are OP D:)
we could make ond fighters shoot so fast that they get past cray ams (this could be done with ond AA too)
also we could give ond air or AA a special that overloads ams (instead of making them shoot faster) a special like the one cray rockets have(not talking about hell fire although it does overload ams) im talking about the AA one that is basically hell fire that targets air units

to all:a big balancing issue in my opinion is that ond special weapons hit cray targets more often then cray specials hit ond targets
example: beam specs always hit the target unless there is something in the way or the target is moving at a angle from the beam(unless it is cray cause cray moves so slow it always hits) the beams counterpart the rocket tank is based more on chance and miss their targets more often D: sometimes it hits sometimes it does not like i have seen hell fire go behind unmoveing targets and do no damage at all!

another example is that cray med/heavy/light/scout tanks have trouble hitting their ond targets with specials due to the fact they are moving so fast
and as always ond med/heavy/light/scout tanks hit their targets due to the fact that cray moves so slow

i think all cray tanks should be given rocket specials that are homing(and are long range as a compromise to sarviks idea) due to the fact they cant hit a thing unless the target is moving strait at them (even then it is most likely shielded and kills them before they can do a thing)

i wish that the beam special was too weak to do damage from the front of cray armor and only did damage from behind or from the side(but that is only a wish)


i also liked carters perspective about military's around the world stealing each others techs so then cray should do the same thing
maybe we should give cray mains a equipment that would increase the armor values (for a short period of time) so high that it cant be damaged from the front or sides but can be killed from behind or from the top(so that hell fire and air units can still kill them and also just to keep the protection with a weakness aspect of cray AMS) JUST AS A TEST BUILD AND JUST FOR FUN or if people like it actually add it to one of the updates idk and idc what you guys really do cause i wont be playing GC with you guys for a long time to come :( (actually i don't know how long but lets say it could be a month to a whole year in till i get to play with you guys again or even possible never D:)

so im totally cool with this whole post being ignored and you guys using sarviks(or anyone else s) ideas instead of mine
and also we need to compromise some more when modding GC and listening to multiple peoples ideas

just throwing out ideas!!!!!!!!! and trying to kick you guys in the butts to get going (its been a long time since the last update!!!!)
and i want the game to be balanced by the time i get back :D
i only work in cyan and sometimes really really bright blue :D so bright it burns your eyes!!!!!

(if you have any questions don't be afraid to PM me or you can contact me via email ddavidshpak@aol.com)

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Re: Sarvik's balance mod suggestions

Postby stAtrill » 28 Jul 2015 03:03

Regarding the hellfire miss, I think the original hellfire was supposed to *try* to hit the target in the back, where the armor is weakest. As usual, the designers must have only had stationary targets in mind when they created this. Fixing the hellfire miss should be easy, especially since there is no valid reason to actually try to hit from the rear (the damage output will kill heavies even hitting them from the front).

Regarding bullet speeds, OND use a default bullet speed of 400 m/s, while CC uses a default 300 m/s (with the exception of AA and the Vulcan autocannon). I created a test build for myself where CC bullet speeds were increased to a 500 m/s default - the results were promising enough to mention for public consideration. Additionally, the weapons seemed more aesthetically 'satisfying'.

I should mention that, in an angle-based game like GC, we can actually calculate the effect this will have on gameplay. Excepting the atrocious accuracy of CC units, all units attempt to shoot at the center of the collision solid of the target. Since the collision solids are cylinders, this makes the math easy: the bullet will miss if the travel distance of the bullet / bullet move speed is less than the collision radius of the target / target's speed (projected into the plane of the bullet). Because everything here is linear, we can expect that missing would require a proportionate increase of travel distance, or disproportionate increase in strafe angle. [I originally wrote more here, but deleted it out as I imagine nobody cares]

Executive summary: if you increase the weapon travel speed by a percentage, the distance at which the bullet misses for a constant strafe angle increases by the same percentage. Additionally, it creates scenarios in which near perpendicular angles are required to strafe at close distances.

There is a soft limit to the speed of 'bullets' before graphical glitches set in, this seems to be right about 800 m/s, which also happens to be about the speed of the Beam Platform weapon. Related, regarding jeagers not actually being good snipers: as an interesting fact, most sniper rifles actually shoot in excess of this limit, usually 850 - 1100 m/s.

-Stat

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