Shall we take 3 weeks to rebalance Cray?

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Shall we take 3 weeks to rebalance Cray?

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11%
 
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Re: Shall we take 3 weeks to rebalance Cray?

Postby XFunc_CaRteR » 08 Aug 2014 22:40

It would be nice to try one of those suggestions I made, but I could live with Cray now.

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Re: Shall we take 3 weeks to rebalance Cray?

Postby Echoscout » 09 Aug 2014 17:25

I would like to see Cray balanced so they are more playable then they are now, but not so much that they're a copy of Order.

Once I get my new setup, I'll gladly help with the testing. :D
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Re: Shall we take 3 weeks to rebalance Cray?

Postby shpooky » 09 Aug 2014 20:13

stat can you give me some links to the tools and files i need to help mod?
i only work in cyan and sometimes really really bright blue :D so bright it burns your eyes!!!!!

(if you have any questions don't be afraid to PM me or you can contact me via email ddavidshpak@aol.com)

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Re: Shall we take 3 weeks to rebalance Cray?

Postby stAtrill » 09 Aug 2014 21:17

shpooky wrote:stat can you give me some links to the tools and files i need to help mod?
Patience Shpooky ;) There needs to be some way to coordinate our efforts, or we will actually end up going backwards in the pursuit of moving forwards.

I am setting up a Git repo - I will create a new thread with the links, as update mods should be public domain anyway. Everything necessary will be there.
-Stat

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Re: Shall we take 3 weeks to rebalance Cray?

Postby Admiral Ghat » 09 Aug 2014 22:00

Although I think CC is fun and viable as is, I would address the turret turn speed on the heavies because it's just comically poor at the moment. The fact that they are slower but tougher should not be changed in my opinion. Maybe even bump the toughness by some minor percentage points while keeping the speed as it is.

What was comparison to OND when under fire? Wouldn't mind bringing that closer to equipoise either if the penalty is significantly higher. Otherwise I feel like changes would alter the character of the faction.

On the turret issue I think there might be some work and Carter's range suggestion should be well taken. Nothing too severe, but keeping it under beams.

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Re: Shall we take 3 weeks to rebalance Cray?

Postby XFunc_CaRteR » 10 Aug 2014 17:08

Maybe just more armour for Cray.

But it still would be nice to just test the Counter-Measures. Playtesting is about... erm... testing.

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Re: Shall we take 3 weeks to rebalance Cray?

Postby stAtrill » 11 Aug 2014 08:01

Admiral Ghat wrote:Although I think CC is fun and viable as is, I would address the turret turn speed on the heavies because it's just comically poor at the moment.
I am glad you mentioned this - I hastily did the percentage calculation in my head when posting the initial comparison, and CC heavies actually turn 87.5% slower, not 50 (OND are 4.0 rad/s, CC are 0.5 rad/s). I updated the original post.
Admiral Ghat wrote:The fact that they are slower but tougher should not be changed in my opinion.
I should mention that, although the design intent (for lack of a better term) of CC likely was to be 'slower but tougher', the 'tougher' part currently only comes from a slight boost to health. Unfortunately, this doesn't actually make them any tougher due to the way damage scaling works in GC - it is based on a multiplier of after-armor reduction of damage. This means that even a decent boost to armor will do nothing perceptable to make them hardier to weapons from units like beams and meds, yet it will cause silly effects like causing certain weaker special weapons to have absolutely no effect. In other words, the damage/armor/scaling system is inherently unstable, and is currently 'tuned' to something of a state of semi-balance. They fixed this in GC 2, btw: armor reductions use both base reduction and percentage points of incoming damage.

I do agree that CC should have something of the 'lumbering juggernaut' going on, but the current damage equations make this rather difficult to produce. For example, a CC heavy on defensive gains an extra 36 armor (I say this because this is probably a much larger armor boost than either Carter or you had in mind). This 36 armor buys the tank resistance ONLY from highly scaled weapons (of which the game has very few) that are tuned for heavy armor values (even fewer). Examples of 'scaled/tuned' weapons include sunburst/he rounds, gyrojet/RAW, mortars/flamethrower, the sentry Autocannon round. Examples of rounds which are unaffected by the armor boost include rounds from meds/beams/artillery (etc), high damage specials like jannice/nuke, and high damage and scaled specials like moonburst. As you can see, there is very little that the 36 armor buys you, which is likely why nobody bothers with defensive loadouts.

I should also mention that, because of the funky equations, more armor buys you resistance from offensive weapons (which are rare in play), however, the resistance of more armor is actually reduced by getting hit by speed weapons (which is the majority of players loadouts).

That said, I was hoping to avoid playing with major changes to armor values, as they are all interconnected in a rather stupid way and may necessitate retuning of other aspects of the damage system.

Admiral Ghat wrote:What was comparison to OND when under fire? Wouldn't mind bringing that closer to equipoise either if the penalty is significantly higher.
OND has no discernible penalty when under fire (where even a 10% accuracy and 5% movement penalty would be discernible). Fun fact: OND actually has more of an accuracy penalty from moving than they do from being fired upon. Not entirely sure what the 'bring closer to equipoise' sentence refers to - if which penalty (accuracy/speed) is higher relative to what (OND doesn't have much, if any)? I am not sure if this helps, but the penalties can not be changed, they are hard coded.


Admiral Ghat wrote:On the turret issue I think there might be some work and Carter's range suggestion should be well taken. Nothing too severe, but keeping it under beams.
This isn't really the thread for this, but: I just went back to check - the view range is 330, and attack range is 300. Beams have view and attack ranges of 350, and meds of 300. These were set so that, with LOS, you could simply issue an attack order on the turret with beams and remain safe.

There probably will be a range reduction. I should just note that any range reduction below current values would allow meds, drones, and rockets to right-click the turret from safety as well. I will elaborate on this in Carter's turret thread.

Echoscout wrote:Once I get my new setup, I'll gladly help with the testing. :D
We anxiously await the day of your return..... ^^

-Stat
Last edited by stAtrill on 11 Aug 2014 18:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Shall we take 3 weeks to rebalance Cray?

Postby Sarvik » 11 Aug 2014 08:52

Stat, can special weapon/equipment loadout options be varied depending of if unit is on speed/offensive/defensive/balanced?

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Re: Shall we take 3 weeks to rebalance Cray?

Postby stAtrill » 11 Aug 2014 18:19

Sarvik wrote:Stat, can special weapon/equipment loadout options be varied depending of if unit is on speed/offensive/defensive/balanced?
No, unfortunately :/ If it could, that would be yet another useful tool to encourage loadout and tactic variation, etc.

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Re: Shall we take 3 weeks to rebalance Cray?

Postby XFunc_CaRteR » 12 Aug 2014 01:57

By the way: I keep having to point out that I have never suggested making Crayven the same as Order.

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