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www.gcvets.net - View topic - GC 1.1.0.1 update mod


GC 1.1.0.1 update mod

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Re: GC 1.1.0.1 update mod

Postby XFunc_CaRteR » 20 Jun 2014 21:58

Nox, you've always ruled the hit-and-run nature of Ground Control 1101... GC 1101 has always been utterly dominated by Order beams and meds with shields, usually on Speed, doing these fast-moving attacks. Which, I might add, is an exploit: any real gunners in a tank would lead a moving target (i.e. aim in front of it, also their targeting systems would compensate for movement); it's not our fault that all GC units are too stupid to lead their targets, meaning that hit-and-run and strafing is unrealistically powerful in GC...

Now we have turrets to mess with that strategy. It finally makes Crayven worth bringing on an open map, and now does rewards a more structured, slower and methodical way of playing on an open map, which is a little closer to real warfare. (Yes, real warfare IS about "base-building": digging into trenches; tanks going into hull-down positions behind berms [even behind low rises, like sanddunes]; if you tried the hit-and-run shit of GC meds-beams in a real war you'd get destroyed.) But anyway... It's something to think about.

GC was left by Massive, out-of-budget, badly in need of an iteration to rebalance Crayven. True the factions were balanced when air was on, but it was this community that preferred no air. So in that case, it's out of balance. Order rules on all open turf. That's out of balance. A game is not balanced when you MUST take a faction on about half the maps, and the other half you can take either.

So the rebalancing is going to be painful for those who have become dominant Order players over the years. It just will.

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Re: GC 1.1.0.1 update mod

Postby DarixIta » 21 Jun 2014 17:41


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Re: GC 1.1.0.1 update mod

Postby Ninja_Prime52 » 22 Jun 2014 07:29

It's interesting to read what this mod does or does not do with tactics and gameplay. The balanced MOD IMHO was to try and make the Cray units more playable and on par with the Beam and Medium OND threat. I haven't really put any time into this and my absence from the Friday and Saturday game nights is a testament to this.
Mods do have a way of changing game styles and gameplay, the good player will adapt to these changes quickly and still exploit the opponents weaknesses. A good player doesn't become a bad one over-night, not matter what changes are thrown in their direction.
I agree that this Mod will need a lot of hours of play testing before it actually achieves it's goal. Balancing units in RTS/RTT games has always been a bone of contention, and will continue to be so. How many games do you know have been released that have been considered truly balanced? I can't think of any, and I've been playing video games for a long time.
Remember that what we may consider balanced probably will not appear balanced to the next group of players that come along.
Hopefully I'll see you guy's on the Ground soon.....
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Re: GC 1.1.0.1 update mod

Postby XFunc_CaRteR » 27 Jun 2014 01:17

My latest ep of TST_presents_GCVetsLeague covers the Balance Mod. Basically, it's a playtest session with the advantage of recording to study the changes.

I ask some high-level rhetorical questions near the end about the direction of the Balance Mod. These questions are directed toward the entire GC community.

I have an idea for some Spec Equip, but I don't want to post it until this higher level question is discussed.

Stat, if you see that video, can yiou hold off trying to implement anything that addresses the concerns I bring up in that video until this discussion can happen?

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Re: GC 1.1.0.1 update mod

Postby stAtrill » 27 Jun 2014 04:48



Another GC archive:

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Re: GC 1.1.0.1 update mod

Postby DarixIta » 27 Jun 2014 19:28

CC is built in a way that makes it support: turrets, jags+demos, slow units and good aa+air combo.
No point trying to make it OND comparable, and that would make the game basically a mirror match. Since we play mainly team games, having a mix of both frontline forces and support is way more fun and interesting.

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Re: GC 1.1.0.1 update mod

Postby XFunc_CaRteR » 27 Jun 2014 22:39


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Re: GC 1.1.0.1 update mod

Postby XFunc_CaRteR » 28 Jun 2014 03:33

This is going to be a long post, but I figure I might as well spill a couple ideas...

Analysis of Order Advantage Over Crayven

The basic pattern of an Order attack is (as you all know):
- Advance
- Fire Special Weapons
- Hit Shields (become immune to EVERYTHING; the high visibility of Order Shields means you know precisely when you are invulnerable and when that invulnerability ends, so you can time things exactly)
- Escape

The combination of Order's inherent speed, its Special Weapons and its Shields work synergistically. This results in a clean, simple and devastatingly effective attack pattern in all cases, for almost all Order units.

Crayven simply has no chance against this Order offensive pattern in frontline combat.

There's nothing like this on the Crayven side. By comparison, Crayven is a clumsy faction. The best Crayven defence - AMS - does not match Order's Shields. It still leaves vulnerability to certain kinds of attacks (hint: beams); it's difficult to see when AMS has ended (making it hard to time attack and escape); and experienced players exploit this mercilessly, using Order's speed and beams to move in and demolish Crayven units with impunity.

Meanwhile the current Crayven Repair Spec Equip also has problems, even in its amped state now:
- It's still difficult to see from high overhead - while you can easily see when Shields are active;
- It can't be activated until the unit is damaged (I believe) - whereas Shields can be activated to anticipate an incoming Special attack;
- And a Repair can be accidentally double-spent, while a Shield can't, meaning you can burn your Repairs faster;
- And, finally, it just doesn't work! Most Special Weapons - both Order AND Crayven - can still destroy a Crayven unit even with Repair active!

What I Am Proposing

I'm proposing that we make GC semi-symmetrical, in terms of multiplayer gameplay and specials.

Right now, GC would be classed as asymmetrical multiplayer, between the two factions. They are very different. But I think that years of playing has demonstrated that this just doesn't work. Crayven is simply outclassed on open terrain (i.e. half the maps).

Semi-symmetrical means that they would be closer in play-style, but still not identical. Each faction would still have its own flavour, but hopefully Crayven would now be able to stand up to Order on Desert and other open maps.

As an example of semi-symmetrical multiplayer, think Counter-Strike. The basic weapon classes are roughly the same, but they manifest differently on each side. Both sides have the AWP sniper rifle just like both sides in GC have artillery, but one side has the AK47 while the other has the M4, et cetera...

Anyway, here are some concrete proposals:

Scout and Light Special Weapon: Advanced HE
- Why are we messing around with Crayven Scout and Light Special Weapons? Let's give them their own Advanced HE round, kind of equivalent to Order Scouts and Lights Electro Field. We even have the Advanced HE particle effect to use.
- The Scout and Light lobbing weapons (Micro-Jannice, HE grenade) are pretty much useless. They're simply too slow; too easy to evade.
- This addresses the clear outclassing that Order has over Crayven in the Scout and Light department. Order Scouts and Lights Electro Field can kill both vehicles AND infantry, for example. Crayven has nothing like that, so it's unfair.
- We could keep the DU round. Basically the DU round is a Crayven version of the Electro-Dagger. Again: semi-symmetrical: make the DU round basically match the Electro-Dagger.

Proposed Crayven Special Equipment: Option 1: "Counter-Measures"
- A powerful defensive equipment for Crayven that protects against a wider spectrum of attacks, though is still not all-purpose the way Order Shields are.
- Available for Mains, Heavies AND Rockets (just like Shields are available for Order Mediums, Heavies, Beams and Drones - let's be fair here).
- Combines BOTH Repair fast health regeneration AND AMS (but not as long as normal AMS, and needs to recharge unlike normal AMS).
- Lasts 1.5x or 2x as long as Order Shields - to make up for the slowness of the Crayven Unit. Actually gives a Cray unit a chance to get in then escape, the way an Order unit can using its Shields.
- Has to recharge for a time period before redeploying (unlike normal AMS). Maybe equal to the same time Shields take to recharge.
- However, Counter-Measures would still allow Beams to rape Crayven units with near-impunity. (Since Crayven has new Heavy Auto Cannon, that might be acceptable.)
- Has a blue particle effect to clearly signal to players when it's active and when it ends. (The Templar Cloaking Spec Equip particle effect could be used.)

Proposed Crayven Special Equipment: Option 2: "Power Armour"
- Basically a Crayven version of Shields.
- Available for Mains, Heavies AND Rockets (again: if all Order frontline tanks and support units get Shields, why not Crayven?).
- Makes the unit invulnerable to everything. Sorry Order... it's an even playing field now.
- Lasts 1.5x or 2x as long as Shields, again to give the slow Cray unit a chance to get in then get away, just like an Order unit can.
- Again, uses a blue particle effect so players can clearly see when it's on and when it's over.
- Also has to recharge after used.

Conclusion

Yes, I know implementing these would be a MAJOR change...

Yes, I know it would break with tradition and the status quo of GC.

BUT I think this would finally balance Crayven for a change. It would finally make things fair. Now a Cray player can use that simple, powerful and synergistic Advance-FireOffensiveSpec-ActivateDefensiveSpec-Escape pattern which makes Order so incredibly strong on open maps.

And making Crayven able to stand up to Order would be a big marketing boost for GC. Some players, frankly, prefer that modern military feel that Crayven gives.

Yes, I know it would make life a bit more painful for Order players. Gee... It's so painful to face a faction that you can no longer dominate with near impunity now.

I know this would be like an earthquake change to GC... but it might be worth it to at least test some of these and see what happens.

It might be worth it to at least do a playtest of this...
Last edited by XFunc_CaRteR on 28 Jun 2014 16:51, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: GC 1.1.0.1 update mod

Postby Ninja_Prime52 » 28 Jun 2014 14:19

Very interesting suggestions you got their Carter, and after reading it a few times I am beginning to like the idea.
If I remember correctly, Massive wanted to two factions different but at the same time balanced, but this was a major flaw in their thinking as we have all discovered, OND do rule the battlefield in more ways than one. They have better protection in the form of shields, which virtually makes them invincible for a short period of time, and they also have better specials. The Cray's are useless without their air units, and as we don't really play with air, that leaves the Cray player at a slight disadvantage. The Cray's are supposed to be slower, but have better armour and also supposed to have more powerful weapons. This was Massive's way of balancing the units better, but as we all know this is not the case.
What would give the Cray ground units more of a fighting chance? Speed and Shields, the AMS is next to useless against beam weapons and its a joke against Beams. If those two disadvantages could be addressed, then we would have IMO a more balanced game.
I like to play as Cray, and been forced to play as OND is not much of a choice, and we end up with just OND v OND units.
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Re: GC 1.1.0.1 update mod

Postby stAtrill » 28 Jun 2014 21:35

Just a couple of things I would like to inject into this:

I remember a conversation we had a while back, the topic was the general philosophy for improving CC: making CC play more like OND, or by making CC more effective with it's current playstyle (sneak attacks, ambushes, detached units, etc). I can't remember if the conversation was private or not (or in GR, where it would now be lost forever), but the general consensus at the time was to accentuate the current method that CC plays (which is what drove the majority of the changes until now).

I personally think it a large merit for this game that an all OND game plays different from an all CC game plays different from a game with combined teams.

Although we not all of the proposed 1105 features have been approved yet, nor is the list necessarily complete, while play testing early 1105 with Ghat, I have noticed that CC is starting to become effective with detached units of mixed squads. I personally have started seeing much success by building 'units' consisting of, for example, offensive meds, recon jeags, speed rockets with AMS, and lights with autocannon, for example (for a combined total of 1 'unit' per DS). I guess I am trying to convey that CC is beginning to have other options available now that make it semi-effective in open combat. Not completely, of course, but it is certainly getting there.

As another idea that worked well for me in Alesis (with some of Ghat's suggestion, of course) was scouts with AMS/grenades, jeags with vision/gyros, offensive meds with telemetry, and lights with DU/autocannon. Believe it or not, this build is highly mobile, high damage, with large vision and large attack ranges, and low total points value if lost. Interestingly enough, it is super resistant to mediums, and decently resistant to beams (especially when leveraging the combined view ranges to keep meds safe). Of course, this is dependent on a couple of the proposed changes for 1105, so this may be less effective in 1104.

Just some thoughts for consideration, though it is along the 'asymmetrical' track.

Cheers,
-Stat


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